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	<title>Comments on: Places to be, versus places to die</title>
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		<title>By: @TheAllianceGuy</title>
		<link>http://thestoppableforce.net/2009/11/03/places-to-be-versus-places-to-die/comment-page-1/#comment-1108</link>
		<dc:creator>@TheAllianceGuy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 15:45:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thestoppableforce.net/2009/11/03/places-to-be-versus-places-to-die/#comment-1108</guid>
		<description>Hmm, interesting post. I personally despise BRD. the big freaking sprawling crapfest. On the other hand I love instances likes the Nexus :P My three favourite instances are Deadmines, Karazahn and Azjol&#039;Nerub. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm, interesting post. I personally despise BRD. the big freaking sprawling crapfest. On the other hand I love instances likes the Nexus <img src='http://thestoppableforce.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif' alt=':P' class='wp-smiley' />  My three favourite instances are Deadmines, Karazahn and Azjol&#039;Nerub.</p>
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		<title>By: Fizz</title>
		<link>http://thestoppableforce.net/2009/11/03/places-to-be-versus-places-to-die/comment-page-1/#comment-1026</link>
		<dc:creator>Fizz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 08:01:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thestoppableforce.net/2009/11/03/places-to-be-versus-places-to-die/#comment-1026</guid>
		<description>I was thinking something very similar the other day when I got pulled in for my first 10 man ToC run.  There seems to be an overall evolution to instances: 
First they started out as (mostly) interesting places to be, with strange and twisting layouts, but ones that made sense in their own way. Of course Blackrock Depths is all twisty and windy and easy to get lost in. It&#039;s just a vast mineshaft dug around an old gods hideout!   The places were crawling with enemies (that we oh so fondly call &#039;trash&#039;), which also made sense because it&#039;s an enemy stronghold. why wouldn&#039;t there be angry enemies packed in tightly ready to smash the snot out of insolent interlopers? 
 
Then they began to move towards a more &#039;start at point A move to point B&#039; style.  Sure that might make some sense if you are just walking into a big building that a big angry mutant tree happens to be hanging out in the back of.  But for the most part they started loosing their &#039;place-ness&#039; as you put it.  Sometimes they might have an offshoot here or there but those offshoots often got skipped.  Why waste time/energy deviating from the path from point A to point B when the objective lies at point B not point C?  The packs of enemies seemed less random too, more like, &#039;here&#039;s a group, move exactly 20 yards get the next, move exactly 20 yards get the next, etc.&#039;   
 
After that the instances basically became large open hallways with nothing interesting off to this side.  Move forward 10 yards, kill trash.  Move 20 kill boss. Move 30 kill trash. Move 40 kill final boss. Mage portal/hearthstone, the end.  It seems like the unique quality of each place was stripped away and we ended up treating instances more like drive-throughs.  The trash was reduced, the length was shortened and instances became very streamlined.  And there didn&#039;t seem to be the same relationship between character and environment, and least not the same way as it used to be.  For example, taking the Defias from the Deadmines and replacing them with the Dwarves from Blackrock would just feel weird and wrong.  But I&#039;m not sure if it would make much of a difference if the folks in the Nexus swapped places with the guys in Utgarde.   
 
And now it looks like they are just going to eliminate all that silly trash and moving around.  Just dump us in a room, have the bosses come to us, kill, loot, end.  And to me that&#039;s incredibly boring. I would absolutely love a large sprawling, slightly confusing instance like Blackrock Depths in the coming expansion.  And the random dungeon idea? Spot on.  Even if it wasn&#039;t 100% random all the time (like it had 5 different possible set ups) it would still be pretty great.  I miss having instances be a place to go to rather than a place to get through. 
 
~Fizz </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was thinking something very similar the other day when I got pulled in for my first 10 man ToC run.  There seems to be an overall evolution to instances:</p>
<p>First they started out as (mostly) interesting places to be, with strange and twisting layouts, but ones that made sense in their own way. Of course Blackrock Depths is all twisty and windy and easy to get lost in. It&#039;s just a vast mineshaft dug around an old gods hideout!   The places were crawling with enemies (that we oh so fondly call &#039;trash&#039;), which also made sense because it&#039;s an enemy stronghold. why wouldn&#039;t there be angry enemies packed in tightly ready to smash the snot out of insolent interlopers?</p>
<p>Then they began to move towards a more &#039;start at point A move to point B&#039; style.  Sure that might make some sense if you are just walking into a big building that a big angry mutant tree happens to be hanging out in the back of.  But for the most part they started loosing their &#039;place-ness&#039; as you put it.  Sometimes they might have an offshoot here or there but those offshoots often got skipped.  Why waste time/energy deviating from the path from point A to point B when the objective lies at point B not point C?  The packs of enemies seemed less random too, more like, &#039;here&#039;s a group, move exactly 20 yards get the next, move exactly 20 yards get the next, etc.&#039;  </p>
<p>After that the instances basically became large open hallways with nothing interesting off to this side.  Move forward 10 yards, kill trash.  Move 20 kill boss. Move 30 kill trash. Move 40 kill final boss. Mage portal/hearthstone, the end.  It seems like the unique quality of each place was stripped away and we ended up treating instances more like drive-throughs.  The trash was reduced, the length was shortened and instances became very streamlined.  And there didn&#039;t seem to be the same relationship between character and environment, and least not the same way as it used to be.  For example, taking the Defias from the Deadmines and replacing them with the Dwarves from Blackrock would just feel weird and wrong.  But I&#039;m not sure if it would make much of a difference if the folks in the Nexus swapped places with the guys in Utgarde.  </p>
<p>And now it looks like they are just going to eliminate all that silly trash and moving around.  Just dump us in a room, have the bosses come to us, kill, loot, end.  And to me that&#039;s incredibly boring. I would absolutely love a large sprawling, slightly confusing instance like Blackrock Depths in the coming expansion.  And the random dungeon idea? Spot on.  Even if it wasn&#039;t 100% random all the time (like it had 5 different possible set ups) it would still be pretty great.  I miss having instances be a place to go to rather than a place to get through.</p>
<p>~Fizz</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://thestoppableforce.net/2009/11/03/places-to-be-versus-places-to-die/comment-page-1/#comment-1008</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 06:22:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thestoppableforce.net/2009/11/03/places-to-be-versus-places-to-die/#comment-1008</guid>
		<description>Scholomance is a good instance. It certainly feels like the haunted house on the top of the hill on the scary island that it rightfully should be. Although it isn&#039;t too convoluted, the sheer fact that you need to run it multiple times (and the second time you&#039;re able to summon an extra boss) + go over to Stratholme to finish one of the more epic questlines makes it delightfully complicated enough to make you excited for a second or third run. Overall, the layout is pretty straightforward, the ratio between trash and boss is a good balance, and the bosses don&#039;t really have a difficult strategy other than just burn them down. Oh, and the attention to detail doesn&#039;t hurt either ;) </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scholomance is a good instance. It certainly feels like the haunted house on the top of the hill on the scary island that it rightfully should be. Although it isn&#039;t too convoluted, the sheer fact that you need to run it multiple times (and the second time you&#039;re able to summon an extra boss) + go over to Stratholme to finish one of the more epic questlines makes it delightfully complicated enough to make you excited for a second or third run. Overall, the layout is pretty straightforward, the ratio between trash and boss is a good balance, and the bosses don&#039;t really have a difficult strategy other than just burn them down. Oh, and the attention to detail doesn&#039;t hurt either <img src='http://thestoppableforce.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Psynister</title>
		<link>http://thestoppableforce.net/2009/11/03/places-to-be-versus-places-to-die/comment-page-1/#comment-983</link>
		<dc:creator>Psynister</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 19:52:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thestoppableforce.net/2009/11/03/places-to-be-versus-places-to-die/#comment-983</guid>
		<description>Yeah, I could definitely see that happening with Deathwing coming out. I think it would be pretty cool, though it has little chance of happening most likely. 
 
We used it in D&amp;D whenever we were short on time and just wanted to jump into combat for a while and then get out. Random fights, random dungeon layout, it was pretty cool.  
 
Even Diablo II did it to some extent. The dungeons only had 2-4 different layouts, but it was randomly generated each time so while you had an idea after running around a bit and finding which layout it way, you never knew what was up the first couple of times you went in. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I could definitely see that happening with Deathwing coming out. I think it would be pretty cool, though it has little chance of happening most likely. </p>
<p>We used it in D&amp;D whenever we were short on time and just wanted to jump into combat for a while and then get out. Random fights, random dungeon layout, it was pretty cool.  </p>
<p>Even Diablo II did it to some extent. The dungeons only had 2-4 different layouts, but it was randomly generated each time so while you had an idea after running around a bit and finding which layout it way, you never knew what was up the first couple of times you went in.</p>
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		<title>By: Stop</title>
		<link>http://thestoppableforce.net/2009/11/03/places-to-be-versus-places-to-die/comment-page-1/#comment-982</link>
		<dc:creator>Stop</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 19:29:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thestoppableforce.net/2009/11/03/places-to-be-versus-places-to-die/#comment-982</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s kind of a cool idea, actually. I never really used it in D&amp;D,&lt;br /&gt;but I&#039;m a big \&quot;random dungeon\&quot; game player on consoles and think&lt;br /&gt;there&#039;s definitely a place for procedurally-generated dungeons in&lt;br /&gt;MMOs. What with the elemental planes coming into play, maybe it&#039;s time&lt;br /&gt;for some kind of weird shifting elemental fortress of some kind? </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#039;s kind of a cool idea, actually. I never really used it in D&#038;D,<br />but I&#039;m a big \&#8221;random dungeon\&#8221; game player on consoles and think<br />there&#039;s definitely a place for procedurally-generated dungeons in<br />MMOs. What with the elemental planes coming into play, maybe it&#039;s time<br />for some kind of weird shifting elemental fortress of some kind?</p>
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		<title>By: Psynister</title>
		<link>http://thestoppableforce.net/2009/11/03/places-to-be-versus-places-to-die/comment-page-1/#comment-981</link>
		<dc:creator>Psynister</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 19:26:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thestoppableforce.net/2009/11/03/places-to-be-versus-places-to-die/#comment-981</guid>
		<description>You know what I&#039;d really love to see added to this game? Random dungeons. 
 
Even just one of them. Make it a massive mine/cave that&#039;s got all sorts of twists and turns to it that go in different directions every time you load the instance. Mobs would be level appropriate, but not always the same mobs. You go in today and it&#039;s dragonkin, but you go in tomorrow and you&#039;re fighting the...er...the bug things all over Silithus, and the next day it&#039;s dark iron dwarves.  
 
Bosses would be the same, or could be different, but they aren&#039;t necessarily in the same place each time. Final boss would probably be static, and you know he spawns at the end, but you aren&#039;t exactly sure where the &quot;end&quot; actually is until you get in there and wander around. I&#039;m a crazy old D&amp;D player though.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know what I&#039;d really love to see added to this game? Random dungeons. </p>
<p>Even just one of them. Make it a massive mine/cave that&#039;s got all sorts of twists and turns to it that go in different directions every time you load the instance. Mobs would be level appropriate, but not always the same mobs. You go in today and it&#039;s dragonkin, but you go in tomorrow and you&#039;re fighting the&#8230;er&#8230;the bug things all over Silithus, and the next day it&#039;s dark iron dwarves.  </p>
<p>Bosses would be the same, or could be different, but they aren&#039;t necessarily in the same place each time. Final boss would probably be static, and you know he spawns at the end, but you aren&#039;t exactly sure where the &quot;end&quot; actually is until you get in there and wander around. I&#039;m a crazy old D&amp;D player though.</p>
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		<title>By: ziboo</title>
		<link>http://thestoppableforce.net/2009/11/03/places-to-be-versus-places-to-die/comment-page-1/#comment-980</link>
		<dc:creator>ziboo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 19:18:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thestoppableforce.net/2009/11/03/places-to-be-versus-places-to-die/#comment-980</guid>
		<description>Interesting thought and agree in principal. 
 
Kara has to be the best imho of all the instances that I&#039;ve been in to date.  
 
Although you are right about BRD it does feel like a place, not a quick grind thru for gear. Admittedly I&#039;ve never done the whole thing start to finish, just parts at the appropriate level.   
 
The same for the troll city/instances - a distinct feel and don&#039;t feel as linear as some.  Most of the Wrath ones seem more place to die.  Although I do love a quick ToC! 
 
Some of them it&#039;s understandable Stocks/RFC - they&#039;re starter, get your feet wet places and serve a specific purpose. You really don&#039;t want to stay in for long. 
 
Personally favorites WC &amp; Deadmines.  DM is linear, but it is a mine so expected - going deeper in I expect to keep meeting worse/harder mobs.  WC is fun, as you can get lost, the bosses are not so &#039;set up&#039; and plenty of variety of mobs. 
 
 </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting thought and agree in principal. </p>
<p>Kara has to be the best imho of all the instances that I&#039;ve been in to date.  </p>
<p>Although you are right about BRD it does feel like a place, not a quick grind thru for gear. Admittedly I&#039;ve never done the whole thing start to finish, just parts at the appropriate level.   </p>
<p>The same for the troll city/instances &#8211; a distinct feel and don&#039;t feel as linear as some.  Most of the Wrath ones seem more place to die.  Although I do love a quick ToC! </p>
<p>Some of them it&#039;s understandable Stocks/RFC &#8211; they&#039;re starter, get your feet wet places and serve a specific purpose. You really don&#039;t want to stay in for long. </p>
<p>Personally favorites WC &amp; Deadmines.  DM is linear, but it is a mine so expected &#8211; going deeper in I expect to keep meeting worse/harder mobs.  WC is fun, as you can get lost, the bosses are not so &#039;set up&#039; and plenty of variety of mobs.</p>
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		<title>By: Stop</title>
		<link>http://thestoppableforce.net/2009/11/03/places-to-be-versus-places-to-die/comment-page-1/#comment-979</link>
		<dc:creator>Stop</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 18:54:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thestoppableforce.net/2009/11/03/places-to-be-versus-places-to-die/#comment-979</guid>
		<description>Hear, hear w/r/t Crusader&#039;s Colosseum! 
 
I never spent very much time in Scholomance so I wasn&#039;t really qualified to add it to this list. I only go in to farm Skins of Shadow (successfully) and the Sawbones Shirt (unsuccessfully), and that&#039;s pretty easy to do without ever seeing much of the instance. Good catch, though. 
 
SFK is pretty fantastic. Are you looking forward to the heroic version as much as I am? </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hear, hear w/r/t Crusader&#039;s Colosseum! </p>
<p>I never spent very much time in Scholomance so I wasn&#039;t really qualified to add it to this list. I only go in to farm Skins of Shadow (successfully) and the Sawbones Shirt (unsuccessfully), and that&#039;s pretty easy to do without ever seeing much of the instance. Good catch, though. </p>
<p>SFK is pretty fantastic. Are you looking forward to the heroic version as much as I am?</p>
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		<title>By: Linedan</title>
		<link>http://thestoppableforce.net/2009/11/03/places-to-be-versus-places-to-die/comment-page-1/#comment-978</link>
		<dc:creator>Linedan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 18:48:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thestoppableforce.net/2009/11/03/places-to-be-versus-places-to-die/#comment-978</guid>
		<description>Both BRD and BRS (Lower and Upper) are awesome in the &quot;feels like a place&quot; category, linearity notwithstanding (and Upper Spire in particular is VERY linear).  I&#039;d add Stratholme, as you did, but also to a slightly lesser extent Scholomance as well.  Shadowfang Keep may beat them all, though.  Worgen roaming the shattered hallways, restless spirits trapped everywhere, and oh, that music when you first get the door to the courtyard opened and look down the stairs at &lt;i&gt;so many mobs...&lt;/i&gt; 
 
Mauradon, as much as it sucks, is actually reasonable (IMO) as a place &quot;to be&quot;...having all that plant life wandering around a big meandering set of caverns makes sense. 
 
BTW, the ultimate &quot;place to die?&quot;  The Crusader&#039;s Colosseum.  One big round room, with Wrynn and Garrosh waving their epeens over your head while Thrall and Jaina pass love notes through the crowd, and ol&#039; Tirion just keeps taking slugs of whiskey and bringing in new mobs for you to fight.  They might as well just put a vending machine outside that gives you 15 Badges of Triumph and a random ilevel 245 piece of loot, so you can get to Ulduar (which is at least pretty). </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Both BRD and BRS (Lower and Upper) are awesome in the &quot;feels like a place&quot; category, linearity notwithstanding (and Upper Spire in particular is VERY linear).  I&#039;d add Stratholme, as you did, but also to a slightly lesser extent Scholomance as well.  Shadowfang Keep may beat them all, though.  Worgen roaming the shattered hallways, restless spirits trapped everywhere, and oh, that music when you first get the door to the courtyard opened and look down the stairs at <i>so many mobs&#8230;</i></p>
<p>Mauradon, as much as it sucks, is actually reasonable (IMO) as a place &quot;to be&quot;&#8230;having all that plant life wandering around a big meandering set of caverns makes sense.</p>
<p>BTW, the ultimate &quot;place to die?&quot;  The Crusader&#039;s Colosseum.  One big round room, with Wrynn and Garrosh waving their epeens over your head while Thrall and Jaina pass love notes through the crowd, and ol&#039; Tirion just keeps taking slugs of whiskey and bringing in new mobs for you to fight.  They might as well just put a vending machine outside that gives you 15 Badges of Triumph and a random ilevel 245 piece of loot, so you can get to Ulduar (which is at least pretty).</p>
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		<title>By: Psynister</title>
		<link>http://thestoppableforce.net/2009/11/03/places-to-be-versus-places-to-die/comment-page-1/#comment-977</link>
		<dc:creator>Psynister</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 17:53:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thestoppableforce.net/2009/11/03/places-to-be-versus-places-to-die/#comment-977</guid>
		<description>Deadmines sits in the balance, and I&#039;ll agree with you on the point it becomes cool, but I think there&#039;s too much stupid crap at the beginning. If they really wanted it to be cool we&#039;d be able to fight our way down into the hull of that ship as well.  
 
I still love WC, but I certainly don&#039;t run it the way you describe. :P And Skum is never optional, nor is Kresh, they both have to die, every time, no exception. But, that&#039;s just me. (Never even heard of No More Heroes, so I&#039;ll take your word on it). We can disagree on this one though. It can be run in a linear manner, but so can every other instance in the game. Mutanus is the only exception to bosses being able to be killed in any order, simply because the event can&#039;t happen/finish until all of the lords are dead. 
 
In fact, despite it&#039;s greatness I&#039;ll claim BRD is more linear than WC.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Deadmines sits in the balance, and I&#039;ll agree with you on the point it becomes cool, but I think there&#039;s too much stupid crap at the beginning. If they really wanted it to be cool we&#039;d be able to fight our way down into the hull of that ship as well.  </p>
<p>I still love WC, but I certainly don&#039;t run it the way you describe. <img src='http://thestoppableforce.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif' alt=':P' class='wp-smiley' />  And Skum is never optional, nor is Kresh, they both have to die, every time, no exception. But, that&#039;s just me. (Never even heard of No More Heroes, so I&#039;ll take your word on it). We can disagree on this one though. It can be run in a linear manner, but so can every other instance in the game. Mutanus is the only exception to bosses being able to be killed in any order, simply because the event can&#039;t happen/finish until all of the lords are dead. </p>
<p>In fact, despite it&#039;s greatness I&#039;ll claim BRD is more linear than WC.</p>
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