There seems to be a new trend in instances these days: more, quicker, faster, get in – get the loot and badges – get out. Take the money and run, as it were. Now, I like the loot from ToC and Ulduar as much as anyone else, but I can’t help but shake the feeling that the instances and raids are losing their, for lack of a better term, place-ness. It’s a hard concept to explain; the best I can do is contrast instances that feel like places to exist or be, versus straight lines full of target dummies and loot.
Places to be
A trend I’ve noticed on my shaman as I’ve been leveling him up through the old world is that many of the old-world instances felt like places to be. It’s hit or miss, but it seems to be a largely “vanilla WoW” tendency that’s gone away over the years. Some examples:
Blackrock Depths. This is one of my favorite instances to run, ever. It’s a bit convoluted in places, and sometimes even an old hand at it like me has problems getting around, but BRD is the perfect example of feeling like a real place. A trip into Blackrock Depths really feels like you’re a visitor to a city full of hostiles, and are basically in there to bust some heads. It’s got barracks, it’s got bars (well, one anyway), it’s got forges and anvils and other dwarven trappings, and it’s got a king and his pregnant, maybe-she’s-kidnapped-maybe-she’s-not wife. It’s got love stories, it’s got an arena, and periodically it has a very angry dwarf who really just wants to enter the brewing competition, dagnabbit. And it’s got an entrance into the Dark Iron Dwarves’ biggest mistake: the home of the unleashed Ragnaros.
That’s not saying BRD doesn’t have its problems. It’s got a lot of the amateur mistakes you see in old instances; namely, quest lines that require multiple trips in and out just to complete something. It also is really confusing to get around in, and has tons and tons of trash. Tons of it. Tons. But BRD is hands down just about my #1 winner in terms of feeling like a real living, breathing place inside an instance portal. Stratholme (the level 60 version) is also on this list, for many of the same reasons.
Troll instances. The old-world troll instances are very good at creating this kind of place-ness feeling – Zul’farrak and Zul’gurub feel like actual places that trolls would hang out and do their thing, like summoning old gods into the world. (Sunken Temple is notoriously not on this list.) Some of the trolls are just chilling in their tents, joking with other trolls; some of the more important ones, like Bloodlord Mando’kir, are accepting important visitors when you show up. In Zul’farrak, the sheer number of trolls milling around is kind of outrageously high, but the city itself does a good job of giving that “trolls live here” feel – scattered tents and huts everywhere, little sanctums for some of the bosses, a party that got there before you and got caged after a wipe, and so on. There’s a few shortcomings (for example, I have no idea where the Sandfury were stashing that many slaves), but ZF and ZG are definitely on my list.
Karazhan. For a long stretch of instances in TBC, you lose the “place” feel – until you get to the raiding level, and set foot into Karazhan. From the moment you start going through Karazhan, you realize this is a place designed for people to inhabit, and it shows. Of course, it makes sense – Magus Medivh did live here, for quite a while, as did a few others – but it’s got a certain aura around it that other raids and instances in TBC definitely don’t have. It really feels like if you cleared out all the crap, and figured out exactly why the top of your tower is sticking into the Twisting Nether, you could move your guild in and call Karazhan your extremely spacious home.
Naxxramas. Now, I know, Naxxramas is probably an odd addition to this list, but Naxxramas really fits its purpose. The place is supposed to be a floating war fortress, where the forces of the Scourge are assembled and ready to attack. Granted, most of what they seem to be doing is milling around, but the place that I think exemplifies this the most is Instructor Razuvious. Since abdicating his position as head instructor aboard Acherus due to a hostile takeover, he’s actively tutoring a new generation of Death Knights, just like he always did. There are, however, a few bosses that throw off this image – Heigan, anyone? Or Loatheb? But Naxx actively feels like a fortress preparing for war, as soon as Arthas delivers the word.
Places to die
The number of instances that fall into this category are many and varied, and the vanilla instances aren’t exempt from this at all – Wailing Caverns, I’m looking at you. Instances that don’t have a sense of “place-ness” generally give the feeling of a straight line between the goal and the finish, in between which there are enemies roaming around whose only purpose in “life” is to roam around and wait to be killed. They’re linear, they’re generally short on story, and they make up most of the instances between 60 and 80.
Hellfire Ramparts. This is the worst offender, and the first one that jumps to mind when I try to come up with examples of linear instances. This is pretty much because other than a few negligible turns, Hellfire Ramparts is almost literally a straight line from start to finish, with trash and bosses scattered along the line. Oh, sure, there’s a little bit of choice at the end – do we kill Omor first, or the other guy? – but it still gives none of the feeling of a place to exist that the others do. Maybe it’s just a place for them to patrol? Well, sure, but where do they go from there? No one’s hanging out in Shattered Halls or Blood Furnace, that’s for sure. Ramparts always gives me the impression of fel orcs milling around, waiting on you to wander by and kill them.
Wailing Caverns. Can we buy the Fanglords a chair? What’re they eating, snakes? Why hasn’t Mutanus already wandered out and killed Naralex? How did Verdan the Everliving even get into that room? All these mysteries and more, in the linear craphole that is Wailing Caverns. Of course, WC also has the side benefit of also being fairly confusing to get around your first time in.
The Nexus. Parts of this have a certain veracity to them – namely, the wandering wildlife in the crystallized section, and the blue dragons fighting an ongoing fight against malevolent magical oddities. (Although, in that case, why haven’t they formed a raid and gone to fight Anomalus themselves? I guess no one wanted to heal.) But other areas… especially the parts all around Grand Magus Telestra. Why are the humans all just hanging out in the Nexus? Yeah, I know they’ve sided with Malygos against the world, but why are they hanging out in the Nexus of all places? It’s a cold, unfeeling shell of a place, apparently built to service the scale and needs of dragonkin (and serve as a prison for Malygos’ mind-controlled mate), and yet these humans are all just standing around. Maybe they’re waiting on a delivery from Ikea, or for the mage who went for takeout to get back. Even Telestra herself is kind of oddly placed: she has a giant featureless glass bubble. Talk about sparse accommodations.
What difference does it make?
I won’t lie to you – I’m whitewashing the old-world instances a little. They tend to be immense, have poorly thought-out questlines in terms of travel time (why does everyone in Feralas want something from the Hinterlands?!), and have way too much trash. But the linear instances, well, they get pretty boring after a run or two. In Cataclysm, how about some instances with some thought and attention put into it? Maybe the Lost City of Tol’vir really will feel like a City – the place-ness feel of older instances and raids, but with the design lessons of the new (less trash, more interesting fight mechanics, questlines that all can be gathered and then end in the 5-man).
BRD and Kara are great, I'll give you those. Troll instances, meh. I don't think Shadowfang Keep should have been left out of the good list though.
Deadmines probably belongs on the bad list, and Stocks certain does. Deadmines is cool, but it's got a combination of good and bad qualities that I think bad might win out on. I love the gear that drops there, don't care for the instance itself though.
If you want a true crap-hole, look no further than RFC. Can you honestly tell me that Thrall doesn't have the power/influence to walk right in there and slaughter everything in there along with what's-his-face right out front that's leading the group?
I think Hellfire Ramparts feels pretty well just like what it is – ramparts, sitting in Hellfire. The orcs are sitting there wandering around aimlessly because that's what you'd do if you were set to watch a wall all day long. I'll disagree with you on that one.
Wailing Caverns I'll also disagree on. Fanglords don't need chairs, they're just that cool. What do they eat? Are you serious?!? Have you seen how much freaking food/water drops in that place? Every mob in that instance has a feast in their pockets. Mutanus hasn't killed Naralex yet because he's luring in would be heroes like yourself so that he can eat you instead (omnomnomnomnom). Verdan started out as just a wee little lad, just like the 20 or so you kill before you get to him, but as he's ever-living he's also ever-growing and eventually he grew too big to get back out. Since you can kill the bosses in pretty well any order you see fit, I don't know that I'd call this one linear. I just made up the Mutanus/Verdan stuff of course, but the point is I disagree with most of your comments on it.
Nexus, yeah it blows. No argument from me on that one.
I waffled a bit on Deadmines, and couldn't decide whether or not to put it on either list. It's kind of a strange instance. I like some parts of the instance – basically everything after Gilnid – but could do without the run through the mines. WTB more battleship.
RFC and Stocks are both kind of stupid. Thrall has his reasons for keeping RFC around, but I'm not sure they're good ones: of course, since that quest line abruptly ends, like so many vanilla questlines, we'll never know. Stocks looks great from the outside but it's not much of a prison breakout if they're all still hanging out in prison, now is it? I'm pretty sure if they got their crap together they could take the guards, make it outside, and rez in Elwynn, safely outside the city.
Wailing Caverns is a big stupid instance. And yes, it has the trappings of non-linearity, but face it – everyone runs it the same way. Fanglords in the main room, then off to the side up to Cobrahn, then back the other way to get the ones on the right from the entrance, optional stop to kill Skum, then Serpentis and Verdan, then back to the beginning to kill Mutanus. We'll have to agree to disagree, because in my opinion it's a linear instance in disguise. (Sort of how No More Heroes looks like an open-world game, and sometimes acts like an open-world game, but sure as hell isn't.)
But you are right, everything and their brother drops food. Baffling, really.
Deadmines sits in the balance, and I'll agree with you on the point it becomes cool, but I think there's too much stupid crap at the beginning. If they really wanted it to be cool we'd be able to fight our way down into the hull of that ship as well.
I still love WC, but I certainly don't run it the way you describe.
And Skum is never optional, nor is Kresh, they both have to die, every time, no exception. But, that's just me. (Never even heard of No More Heroes, so I'll take your word on it). We can disagree on this one though. It can be run in a linear manner, but so can every other instance in the game. Mutanus is the only exception to bosses being able to be killed in any order, simply because the event can't happen/finish until all of the lords are dead.
In fact, despite it's greatness I'll claim BRD is more linear than WC.
Both BRD and BRS (Lower and Upper) are awesome in the "feels like a place" category, linearity notwithstanding (and Upper Spire in particular is VERY linear). I'd add Stratholme, as you did, but also to a slightly lesser extent Scholomance as well. Shadowfang Keep may beat them all, though. Worgen roaming the shattered hallways, restless spirits trapped everywhere, and oh, that music when you first get the door to the courtyard opened and look down the stairs at so many mobs…
Mauradon, as much as it sucks, is actually reasonable (IMO) as a place "to be"…having all that plant life wandering around a big meandering set of caverns makes sense.
BTW, the ultimate "place to die?" The Crusader's Colosseum. One big round room, with Wrynn and Garrosh waving their epeens over your head while Thrall and Jaina pass love notes through the crowd, and ol' Tirion just keeps taking slugs of whiskey and bringing in new mobs for you to fight. They might as well just put a vending machine outside that gives you 15 Badges of Triumph and a random ilevel 245 piece of loot, so you can get to Ulduar (which is at least pretty).
Hear, hear w/r/t Crusader's Colosseum!
I never spent very much time in Scholomance so I wasn't really qualified to add it to this list. I only go in to farm Skins of Shadow (successfully) and the Sawbones Shirt (unsuccessfully), and that's pretty easy to do without ever seeing much of the instance. Good catch, though.
SFK is pretty fantastic. Are you looking forward to the heroic version as much as I am?
Scholomance is a good instance. It certainly feels like the haunted house on the top of the hill on the scary island that it rightfully should be. Although it isn't too convoluted, the sheer fact that you need to run it multiple times (and the second time you're able to summon an extra boss) + go over to Stratholme to finish one of the more epic questlines makes it delightfully complicated enough to make you excited for a second or third run. Overall, the layout is pretty straightforward, the ratio between trash and boss is a good balance, and the bosses don't really have a difficult strategy other than just burn them down. Oh, and the attention to detail doesn't hurt either
Interesting thought and agree in principal.
Kara has to be the best imho of all the instances that I've been in to date.
Although you are right about BRD it does feel like a place, not a quick grind thru for gear. Admittedly I've never done the whole thing start to finish, just parts at the appropriate level.
The same for the troll city/instances – a distinct feel and don't feel as linear as some. Most of the Wrath ones seem more place to die. Although I do love a quick ToC!
Some of them it's understandable Stocks/RFC – they're starter, get your feet wet places and serve a specific purpose. You really don't want to stay in for long.
Personally favorites WC & Deadmines. DM is linear, but it is a mine so expected – going deeper in I expect to keep meeting worse/harder mobs. WC is fun, as you can get lost, the bosses are not so 'set up' and plenty of variety of mobs.
You know what I'd really love to see added to this game? Random dungeons.
Even just one of them. Make it a massive mine/cave that's got all sorts of twists and turns to it that go in different directions every time you load the instance. Mobs would be level appropriate, but not always the same mobs. You go in today and it's dragonkin, but you go in tomorrow and you're fighting the…er…the bug things all over Silithus, and the next day it's dark iron dwarves.
Bosses would be the same, or could be different, but they aren't necessarily in the same place each time. Final boss would probably be static, and you know he spawns at the end, but you aren't exactly sure where the "end" actually is until you get in there and wander around. I'm a crazy old D&D player though.
That's kind of a cool idea, actually. I never really used it in D&D,
but I'm a big \”random dungeon\” game player on consoles and think
there's definitely a place for procedurally-generated dungeons in
MMOs. What with the elemental planes coming into play, maybe it's time
for some kind of weird shifting elemental fortress of some kind?
Yeah, I could definitely see that happening with Deathwing coming out. I think it would be pretty cool, though it has little chance of happening most likely.
We used it in D&D whenever we were short on time and just wanted to jump into combat for a while and then get out. Random fights, random dungeon layout, it was pretty cool.
Even Diablo II did it to some extent. The dungeons only had 2-4 different layouts, but it was randomly generated each time so while you had an idea after running around a bit and finding which layout it way, you never knew what was up the first couple of times you went in.
I was thinking something very similar the other day when I got pulled in for my first 10 man ToC run. There seems to be an overall evolution to instances:
First they started out as (mostly) interesting places to be, with strange and twisting layouts, but ones that made sense in their own way. Of course Blackrock Depths is all twisty and windy and easy to get lost in. It's just a vast mineshaft dug around an old gods hideout! The places were crawling with enemies (that we oh so fondly call 'trash'), which also made sense because it's an enemy stronghold. why wouldn't there be angry enemies packed in tightly ready to smash the snot out of insolent interlopers?
Then they began to move towards a more 'start at point A move to point B' style. Sure that might make some sense if you are just walking into a big building that a big angry mutant tree happens to be hanging out in the back of. But for the most part they started loosing their 'place-ness' as you put it. Sometimes they might have an offshoot here or there but those offshoots often got skipped. Why waste time/energy deviating from the path from point A to point B when the objective lies at point B not point C? The packs of enemies seemed less random too, more like, 'here's a group, move exactly 20 yards get the next, move exactly 20 yards get the next, etc.'
After that the instances basically became large open hallways with nothing interesting off to this side. Move forward 10 yards, kill trash. Move 20 kill boss. Move 30 kill trash. Move 40 kill final boss. Mage portal/hearthstone, the end. It seems like the unique quality of each place was stripped away and we ended up treating instances more like drive-throughs. The trash was reduced, the length was shortened and instances became very streamlined. And there didn't seem to be the same relationship between character and environment, and least not the same way as it used to be. For example, taking the Defias from the Deadmines and replacing them with the Dwarves from Blackrock would just feel weird and wrong. But I'm not sure if it would make much of a difference if the folks in the Nexus swapped places with the guys in Utgarde.
And now it looks like they are just going to eliminate all that silly trash and moving around. Just dump us in a room, have the bosses come to us, kill, loot, end. And to me that's incredibly boring. I would absolutely love a large sprawling, slightly confusing instance like Blackrock Depths in the coming expansion. And the random dungeon idea? Spot on. Even if it wasn't 100% random all the time (like it had 5 different possible set ups) it would still be pretty great. I miss having instances be a place to go to rather than a place to get through.
~Fizz
Hmm, interesting post. I personally despise BRD. the big freaking sprawling crapfest. On the other hand I love instances likes the Nexus
My three favourite instances are Deadmines, Karazahn and Azjol'Nerub.